Trade Strategies You Need to Know

Machine Operated Script:

Andy  

 All right, folks, we are going to have another great show for simply trade podcasts, and it is going to be a good discussion today. I’m looking forward to this, Lalo, but before that, you and I have not had the chance to really be back on together for a while, or we’ve been going different directions or different things. There has been more things happening. And I’m telling you, there’s been a lot of folks that have been going crazy, you know, crazier than a squirrel in a nut packing factory. So they’re just all over the place. I will tell you, it is just some exciting times right now, good, bad, whether you agree with it or not, it is just never a dull moment, is there? No, I know it’s crazy. And yeah, I’ve been

Annik  

Music Before we get started with the show, here’s a quick word from our sponsor, global Training Center. As trade compliance professionals, you want to make sure that your procedures and documentation are completed as correctly as possible to avoid any delays and possible fines, we provide a range of trade compliance courses that will fit your needs, from in person or web training to recorded on demand courses. We can train one or even 1000s on your team through your learning platform or on our portal. We can even customize a private session for your team. Go to globaltrainingcenter.com to find out more. All right, folks, we are going to have another great show for simply trade podcasts, and it is going to be a good discussion today. I’m looking forward to this, Lalo, but before that, you and I have not had the chance to really be back on together for a while, or we’ve been going different directions or different things. There has been more things happening. And I’m telling you, there’s been a lot of folks that have been going crazy, you know, crazier than a squirrel in a nut packing factory. So they’re just all over the place. I will tell you, it is just some exciting times right now, good, bad, whether you agree with it or not, it is just never a dull moment, is there? No, I know it’s crazy. And yeah, I’ve been

Lalo  

reading and even seeing or listening to other they may not call them podcasts, but like webinars or whatever you know, and just been following a lot of what’s going on and and you’re right, it’s, it’s, it’s one of those times. It’s just like the first time when Trump was in office, it kept the trade people busy, although not as busy as this time around. I think this time around is a lot more frantic, but it’s fine, you know. And the way we the way we look at it here at global Training Center, is it’s, it’s job security for now.

Speaker 1 

No question. It’s, as we were saying off camera here, is that, it whether you’re for Trump or against them, or you like the agenda, or you hate the agenda. If you are in logistics, purchasing, sourcing, and definitely in the compliance arena and trade law and all that, you’re at the table, people are asking questions. What do I do? Where am I going? So you know, when I keep hearing some of our counterparts out there, they’ll complain, and woe is me, and I can’t believe this. And now what? Oh my gosh, you’re at the table. People are asking you. The question is, Are you truly prepared for this or not? And that’s one of the things we’re going to be talking about today.

Lalo  

These are new saying Andy that we came that I told you about the other day. If you’re not at the table, you’re part of the menu, so might as well be at the sitting at the table. I love

Speaker 1 

that. I love that if you’re not the at the table, you’re part of the menu, so don’t be getting eaten up here. So this is going to be good, folks. We have a couple of people from the Schultz trade law firm, who one of these folks are just a dear friend. I just love her to death. She’s so wonderful. And it’s Michelle herself, the one and only Michelle Schultz, and she has a guru of sorts that is got their well prepared, and, and, and all that. Marina Mikhail, I hope I said that right. And, oh, listen, these two ladies are phenomenal. And I will say anytime Michelle is talking, you know how to be like the old EF Hutton commercial, you better be listening, because there’s gonna be nuggets of knowledge that you can take away from this. So welcome to the show, ladies,

Michelle Schulz 

thank you. Thank you so much. We love talking with you, Andy and Lalo. We just, it’s just a pleasure. And right back at you, Andy, you are just one of my favorite people. It’s a pleasure, always a pleasure, to hear you talk. So

Speaker 1 

I appreciate that. Listen, I’m about as smart as a bag full of hammers, so I have to look at it and see what’s going on and surround myself with things. But Lalo is the one. Keep in mind, we have a great show here. Lalo and his team really put it together. They are so phenomenal. And folks, you may hear us talk about Mara, she’s in the backgrounds, making us all look and sound good and all that, but the whole team, I mean, LA, I don’t know how you do it. You get everybody organized, you keep it going, and the editing is fantastic. All kudos to you. Yeah,

Michelle Schulz 

thank you all in line and and up to speed on what’s happening in the world.

Lalo  

Okay. Well, thank you. Well, this is not the Lalo show, but I wanted to, I wanted to talk about two different things before we got talking about trade. First of all. I just realized,

Michelle Schulz 

Oh, what was, what is that? Lalo, that looks really,

Speaker 1 

really good. It’s not coming across. Well, it’s not,

Michelle Schulz 

it’s, no, it’s, it’s, I think that says Schultz, yeah, that’s a show.

Lalo  

This is my daily, my daily cup that I usually use, and it’s always off camera. Said I don’t piss off anybody. But, and

Speaker 1 

like, you know what I wish I get because I have one of your water bottles. Yeah, I normally bring it up here and I’m looking forward going, Oh no, I left it. I had to wash it. It’s ah.

Lalo  

The other thing I wanted to mention was, congrats on your recent we saw the, it’s not really a press release, but a member announcement that you are the Council for icpa, so congrats on that.

Michelle Schulz 

Thank you. I’m the honorary us Council, and I’m I’m just honored to be part of it and to be able to work with John Grayston, who’s EU Council, and with George Reed, Canadian Council, it’s, it’s funny when we get together, because with all the tariff wars going on right now, we’re just glad we’re all friends.

Speaker 1 

Yeah, you, you K Pop folks, are you Canadian? Oh, you us? I get it? No, I love it. I love it. Yes. And John say he’s got such a great sense of humor. He is such a great guy. So hey, Marina, let me ask you a question. Obviously, Michelle is the, you know, the Queen and of the courts over here in the Texas area there. And when i What is it that you do? Let me ask that.

Marina Mekheil 

So I started off after under or after law school at CBP, actually. So I was working in headquarters at CBP. And then I’m from Dallas originally, so I moved back to Dallas, and Michelle scooped me up. It was was perfect timing, because she was just starting her firm, and it was very exciting. So I started just doing import work, import compliance, and she’s been teaching the export work as well, and so I’m doing both now, and it’s been really fun. And we get such interesting clients and interesting work here. So I’ve, we’ve kind of seen it all at this point, but

Speaker 1 

that’s fantastic. So when you were at customs, that was probably under Brenda Smith’s area, wouldn’t it?

Marina Mekheil 

It was, I think it was Brenda and Alice kipple was the head quarters Executive Director. I think that’s what they call it. But I think I started in 26 or 2019 so this is right when section 301, first happened. And so it was fun being there for that two years we were working on exclusion section 301. Exclusion implementation. So that was a good time to start entering into the trade world.

Speaker 1 

Well, I will say Brenda’s is another favorite is she’s just was a great leader at CBP and very polished, so strong women in the in the industry. So hey, Lalo, how do you want to start this? Because Michelle has posted something that has been folks link. First off, take a look at LinkedIn. Take a look at the Schultz trade law. And that’s s, c h, u l, was it T Z, no, T Z, no. Okay, as Yeah, I knew there was something different. I s, c h, u, l, z, okay, like I said, I’d screw up a two car parading, and I’m one block route. Okay, so take a look at LinkedIn and take a look at Schultz trade law. They’ve made a posting there that is phenomenal. All this stuff that’s going on. People are complaining, or they’re going back and forth as far as, oh, well, now there’s a threat of, you know, 25% or 10% or 50% or 100% duties on this country, that country, whatever. And then it has been a whirlwind. And the thing that I like, rather than a complaint or trying to go through, is that Michelle and her team have posted some things. Here are some recommendations of what you need to do, how to handle this stuff, not necessarily complaining politically, one way or the other, but some really good suggestions on what to do with this. But Lalo, I’m gonna defer to you on exactly where to start here. Yeah. Well, the reason,

Lalo  

I mean, I saw that post and I quickly thought, Okay, let’s try to get them on as soon as we can. Because, of course, things change there. So fluid right now, everything is just like, look at the Columbia situation. I talked about that before. In the morning, Columbia had a big tariff, and then by the afternoon or the evening that same day, it was gone. And not that it could have been implemented anyway, because it was Sunday, you know. So anyway, you know. So things change so quickly. I know that’s a very dramatic example, but still, I mean, things can change that quickly. But I saw the post and I said, Okay, that’s a lot of like, the philosophy that we have, especially like at on the podcast and with global Training Center, is, let’s figure out how to deal with this situation. Yes, it’s okay go and complain, or go in and talk to your representatives. Go and talk to you know, maybe someone at CBP that you might know not, not that maybe they can’t do anything, but maybe your elected officials and tell them you know how you feel, why you feel. This is not good, etc. That’s still valid. Keep on doing that. But as we all know, they say, Congress or not, Congress, the government, is like an analogy with trade, right? You get these big cargo ships that are coming into dog try to turn that thing around. It’s going to take forever. You know, that boat is not going to turn around that quickly. You know, same thing with with with our government, you know it, it’s gonna take some time, you know, unless you know Trump, and you’re his right hand guy, like, like Elon Musk, and you can tell him, Hey, go lift a tariff. Or go, go, go impose a tariff. I mean, yeah, that’s something different. But we’re not, we’re not musk, you know, we’re we normally have to go through the normal channels. And so when I saw that, I said, Okay, let’s do that, because I keep on hearing people or watching or seeing posts you know about what is going on, but not how to deal with it. So Michelle, really it’s up to you all. I mean, I saw how you are talking about especially, I guess Marina was part of the reason why this post ever even came out was dealing with these tariffs through chapter 98 on duty, drawback, your free trade agreements, etc. Well, let’s just start there. You know, let’s, let’s go with that and see where the conversation takes us.

Michelle Schulz 

Yeah, sure. We, you know, we are very solution focused. And I have to hand it to Marina, she has come up with several different strategies that we included in the post, and so our whole team really contributed. But there, there are different strategies that people should look at now that maybe they ignored before. So you mentioned chapter 98 for example, we have in everyday practice, we have a lot of clients that don’t use chapter 98 simply because we’ll

Speaker 1 

tell folks what 98 is you’re talking about. I assume us gets returned, or you’re talking about, there’s a lot of dealing. 98 is pretty broad in some application here. Yeah,

Michelle Schulz 

I’m being kind of broad. Yeah, US goods returned under Chapter 98 of the Harmonized Tariff code. And you can claim duty free treatment if you claim the proper tariff code, but if you have the correct documentation. And so a lot of companies want to use 98 but they don’t know how to do the documentation, or they don’t have the resources, or this is probably a new one, they don’t have the staff. I’m sure you’ve heard that before, so now’s the time Marina, and I strongly recommend. Okay, maybe you didn’t look at 98 before you thought it was too hard. Nothing’s too hard when you’re getting hit with this kind of tariff Marina. What do you think about that?

Marina Mekheil 

2% agree, and I think this is the time where compliance is usually maybe somebody that people in the C suite don’t want to talk to, but now is your time to get in, because before you were saying spend money on compliance, now you’re saying spend money on compliance so that you can potentially get some of this money back that you’re paying in duties. And chapter 98 is filled with possible duty savings US goods returns. There’s also a provision in Chapter and Chapter 98 for goods that are being repaired. So if you’re a company that is constantly sending things out to be repaired and they’re coming back in the United States, don’t pay that duty twice. You can pay that duty on the repair value, not on the value of the good, which could possibly save you a lot of money. So there are all these different ways that you can save money, or possibly just get something in duty free, but you need to have a compliance program in place, because these things done without proper documentation. And not through the proper procedure, could potentially cost you more in penalties if you do it incorrectly, but if you do it correctly, you have people in place who know what they’re doing, you could save a lot of money. One of

Speaker 1 

the things too, I’d be remiss, just because of my past background, if you’re talking about US goods that are leaving the country and coming back, some things going out for repair. But also, let’s say you’ve got a machine, or you’ve got equipment, if you’re a photographer, there’s a big deal on that is used where you’re going out and coming back in, is the use of an ATA CarNet. It’s, you know, whatever goes out and it goes into other countries, it would go in duty and tax free, but whatever goes in got to come back out. But on the same token, when it comes back to the States again, it would be duty and tax free, but you again is you’re talking about the appropriate documentation and the appropriate procedures. So if you’ve got sales that are going to conferences around the world, there’s things that you can do that from an export perspective, that let customs know here in the US that you’re going to be bringing this back. But on the same token as you’re going out there, it takes a little bit of time. It takes somebody to become proficient for you reach out to the experts and then look to see what do I need to do, plan it out and go from there. The issue of not having staff, but you’re doing business internationally, you know, I don’t buy that. It’d be the same way is, you know what, I don’t have the staff. If I’m going to build a house, I don’t have the staff or the money to deal with an architect. I’m just going to start getting lumber out there and, you know, pouring concrete and all that, and go to town on it. What do you think is going to happen? It’ll be a big mess. So, you know, the staff to do this. And Michelle, I like what you’re saying. Do this on the front end. Take a look at it. Well, I’m already into it. Okay, then you start where you’re at. And you might not be able to hit everything, but you can get do a plan, get things said, and then in 30 days, you might be prepared with you all your departments, here’s how we’re going to handle this particular type of transaction.

Michelle Schulz 

Oh, yeah, you can, if you’re prepared, you can save a lot of money through 98 and other means that I think previously people didn’t want to spend money on. They thought, well, trade compliance is a cost center. Trade compliance is not a cost center anymore. It’s your savings center. And if you are skimping on the trade compliance team, you may, you may run into an issue. We, for example, we had a case recently where a company had like a tiger team assigned to the tariffs. And I’ve seen this in several companies. The tiger team is assigned to the tariffs. They’re going and going, and they send us their first question, and the question makes absolutely no sense, because they didn’t think to include the trade people in trade. This is where, like Marina said, Get in. Now, if you’re a compliance professional, this is it.

Speaker 1 

Well, Michelle, that’s one of those where. And you’ve heard me say this, a lot of people have, but they’ll move on down the road. They’re marketing. They’re doing all these things you’re trying to, you know, you’ve got your sales contracts, and you’ve got commitments you’re trying to live up to, and then all of a sudden, here comes issues that are going to negatively affect your supply chain, either being an export and you’ve got deadlines to meet or on an import, and you’re trying to meet your own deadlines internally for whether it’s a factory, your customers or whatever. And so when you bring in the compliance people after the fact, or later into it, then it’s they’re like the pooper scooper at the end of a parade, cleaning up that mess, all right? And it would be better to get on the front end and feed this beast and handle it appropriately, and rather than clean up after, I

Marina Mekheil 

would also like to say, you know, just what you said, the compliance is a pooper scooper. It’s compliance right now is also going to be, you want to be part of the planning. Are you entering a distribution agreement? Are you create are you signing up a new supplier? Are you trying to enter a new country’s market, whatever it is, have a trade professional in that conversation. It’s not just us. Tariffs on China, Mexico, Canada. We’re talking about retaliatory tariffs coming from other countries. We’re talking about China allowing better access to their. Get to our allies and not us, that is going to affect your decisions. We’re not just talking about I mean, nothing is simple anymore. We don’t have companies that purely just do import into the United States. We have companies that are doing vast export and import operations. They’re doing business with several countries. So you want to have a trade professional in that conversation. When you’re starting an agreement with somebody, when you’re entering into a new transaction, and you’re you’re trying to write what you’re going to do, you need to know what the trade implication at that point is. Because if you come back at the end of that art that negotiation, you’re saying to your compliance person, here’s what we came up with. And they’re like, great, this is going to be expensive. And you didn’t, you know, you didn’t have the right people in that conversation. At the very beginning, your

Speaker 1 

product may be getting caught in the middle of a trade war type scenario. So you how do you navigate that? That’s where these trade experts come into play, yes,

Michelle Schulz 

and it’s very technical. You know, one example would be duty drawback, where we see this a lot in the oil and gas industry, where goods come into the US, and then they later leave, and if you’re able to track those, you can get a refund. But it’s not just so easy as it sounds because you have to have an inventory plan. You have to know are you first in first out? Are you last in first out? You have to know if you have fungibles, which are commercially interchangeable items. So maybe I brought in this oil, but I’m sending out that oil, but it’s the exact same oil. So who cares? It’s like $1 $1 is $1 but these technical questions are for the trade department. They’re it’s not something you want to just take lightly.

Lalo  

Ultimately, the consumer, obviously, the consumers who pays for the tariffs, you know, so, so, so flat out, that’s, that’s reality. People think that maybe China is the one that’s paying the terrors, when, when, or Canada, US, whoever the country that’s exporting out. But obviously that’s not true. It’s the importer that’s paying it, who is an American, you know, company or, you know, anyway, the importer record here in the US. So when you do that drawback, so I’ve been watching this, this post that’s been trending, and I’m laughing, because people are just fighting back and forth on it and saying, Well, you can clean drawback and get your money back. And they’re saying, Yeah, but they’re not going to return that money back to the consumer and reflect it on the pricing. I guess it’s really not that easy, right? I mean, it’s not that easy by saying because you’re not gonna get that drawback till several months, maybe a year or even years later, right? Drawback

Marina Mekheil 

is it’s not an easy program to enter, and you are going to be watched by CBP when you enter into a program like this, so and there are different ways to enter this program that might make your refunds come in faster. You could do something with unused merchandise, where you can have a quicker process in them reviewing your claims. You can enter into something like that, but they require you to show them what your compliance program is in that point, and it’s usually up to six months. Now, we’ve talked to drawback brokerages in our clients, and they wait a year or two years for a refund. Yeah, that’s just kind of what CBP is right now, they’re putting money into enforcement. They’re putting money into this political, you know, stance, but they’re not going to put a lot of money or people into, you know, a drawback program, making sure that we’re, you know, getting our resources, which is why it’s really important for whoever’s claiming that drawback to make sure that they’re making their claims very Easy. They’re providing documentation. They’re not giving CBP any reason to deny a claim or come back and ask a bunch of questions, which delays your resign. Yeah,

Michelle Schulz 

we saw a denied claim recently, didn’t we? We recently saw a denied claim, and I think customs just didn’t think that this company had proven that the merchandise came in and went back out. They couldn’t track it, and just for that reason, no refund for you

Marina Mekheil 

and that client had done it for the first time. That was their first time doing it. And we were not brought in at the beginning. We were brought in after. We were pooper Supers. But that’s what happens big shovels sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 

Well, you know, here’s the other thing, though, is that all of these items, you know, the drawback program, if you happen to use a Foreign Trade Zone, or an FTZ, where you’re bringing in, you know, bulk shipments of items, and then you’re doing a pick and pack, and you. Shipping a lot of that back out to other countries. You have the ability to, you know, protect your cash flow by not even having to, you know, spend money on it as you’re sending it out. However, I will say there’s different advantages to drawback over FTCS and vice versa. It just depends on what works with your trade attorneys and with your customs brokers, they have the expertise to say, yes, you can do this, or no, you can’t. And usually there are things that people have these assumptions, oh, we can just work through this and all that. And then they get shocked when it’s after the fact. What do you mean? I can’t do this. I’ve already built a marketing campaign and a sales campaign off of this and whatnot. How do you go about those kinds of things? And maybe advice executive management, wake up. Smell the Roses here, because you’re going to go down the wrong road if you don’t, if you’re not astute enough to ask the right questions, oh yeah,

Michelle Schulz 

you’ve got to report up. And if you don’t have that executive management support, then you’re, you’re inevitably going to have a problem. We have been doing this type of work for over 20 years, and I can attest that when there’s no support from the top, you have an uphill, uphill climb. It’s, it’s definitely going to be a poop scooping moment. So yeah, I think coming in after the fact, you can clean these things up, but it’s more expensive if someone writes their own will and then brings it to a wills and estates attorney and says, can you just edit this? I guarantee you it’s going to cost more than if you had just let the will guy write it. And that’s what this is. It’s it costs more in the end because you have to bring in attorneys and it’s messy, takes time and money is delayed. So doing it on the back end is not great. Top Down, support is critical. And I I heard John Dean say, once he was, he was the White House Counsel in the Nixon administration. He said, If you can’t report up, you got to report out. He had to report all the way up the chain. And that’s what that’s what people were doing in compliance. If your boss is not listening, tell somebody else, because you can save money,

Speaker 1 

but come up with the top three things to inform above and trust your leadership that they will be able to take that and run with it. You need to break it down to where it’s not too complex. It’s just like, keep it simple. I mean, for me again, I’m just, you know, I’ve got to have it laid out. Draw me a picture, and I can go from there. So what do you think about that kind of approach? Inform up above, influence around you and control below you.

Michelle Schulz 

They do not have time. They may have two minutes. So you’ve got to get their attention fast, right? Marina, yes.

Marina Mekheil 

And I want to caveat that, to just say one thing, especially when I think what we’re going to see probably is more buy in from the executives now, they’re watching the news, they’re going to come to your office now and be like, Okay, are we worried? Should be be doing something. And you have to, yes, explain to them concisely and quickly what needs to be done and how to say but you need to explain to them that they need to ask the right questions they cannot. I mean, we’re going to talk about drawback. We’re going to talk about Chapter 98 with executives. We’re going to talk about FTC and FTAs, but we’re looking at these executive orders from President Trump and the 10% on all goods from China. You cannot claim duty drawback on those, the steel and aluminum that just came out yesterday. You cannot claim duty drawback on that. And you cannot, you cannot have mitigating factors. If you were to not pay those tariffs and CBP were to come back knocking on your door, there’s no mitigating factors. You’re getting the tax penalty. So you need to, you know, explain to them you want to sell this to that, and say, we’re going to save money. But you also need to be very clear to that than that. We can’t rush into anything so that we can save 25% on duties. We have to make sure we’re doing things correctly. So companies need to kind of figure out where is the cost coming? Is the cost coming from the 25% tariffs on list, one, two and three, four? Are they coming into this new 10% tariff on China? Are they coming from still? Because that is going to change what you do to save money. And they need to be careful that they’re not just, oh, I’m starting drawback tomorrow, and I’ve done this claim, and then, and then somebody’s like, Oh, you guys are doing duty drawback, but you’re getting hit by this 10% tariff. And it’s not, you can’t. Claim it on this.

Speaker 1 

What do you think is, like, Okay, I’m in the compliance I’m looking at this. What would be the top three things you you would recommend somebody do? I’ll

Lalo  

give you all the freebie. Okay, so, so, yeah, there’s not one over year three is called Schultz law firm. Okay, so that’s a freebie. So one of the other three, you don’t burn a wish. You know what I mean? Like, yeah,

Michelle Schulz 

I think Andy’s point is very well taken. You know, a lot of people are are having trouble now, and they’re struggling with all this change, and the only way we’re gonna make this good is if we have hope and we drive forward. And so I think it’s really important for trade compliance folks to not give up at this time. Take this as your opportunity and take the lead, because those tariff codes maybe you didn’t classify all the past five years. Maybe they’re wrong, and maybe if you had a different one, you wouldn’t know those duties. And similarly, you might have thought drawback was too hard. Maybe it’s not too hard now and last but not least, Chapter 98 same thing, record keeping. Maybe you had bad record keeping in the past. Start today, I would take a positive approach to this whole thing, and try to make a difference at your company. I don’t want

Marina Mekheil 

to echo too much or give the same ones, but yes, that first one is you need to do an assessment of, are you importing? Are you exporting? Have you looked at your classifications, at your valuation, at your country of origin, if you are not somebody who’s paying, putting a lot of money in compliance now is your time. Start looking at the errors that you’re you’re making and he’s paid. Because if you want to save money, you can’t save money. You can’t start doing chapter 98 drawback, FTAs, and have bad classifications or claim country of origin, wrong? So that’s really your first step is just kind of have somebody good in there, do an audit, do an assessment. Second thing, figure out what is actually costing you a lot of money right now and what will cost you a lot of money right now. He we’re not going to see these executive orders stop anytime soon. These tariffs to Mexico and Canada are suspended for now, but they might be implemented. So kind of figure out where your cost is going to happen, and that’s where you should focus on any of these duty savings. I guess the last thing is, maybe just be nimble. You’re not, don’t get yourself stuck, is what I’m saying. And this is not necessarily, maybe for a compliance person, but for whoever they’re speaking to, who is moving manufacturing or or, you know, bringing in on you supplier, make sure you’re not getting yourself stuck. This is where, what, two months, a month into it, you’re going to see a lot of changes in the next four years. We saw what happened with Columbia at the beginning of the presidency. We we don’t know what’s going to happen. We don’t know if tariffs are going to hit other products from other countries. So you need to be nimble. You need to be ready to react, and don’t get yourself stuck in a situation where you now have incurred other costs. Thank

Lalo  

you, yeah. And just in the interest of time, yeah, I mean, yeah, I understand. Thank you very much. You know, for everybody listening, like Andy said, and Marina, it was pleasure meeting you. I never I don’t know if I’ve ever met you in person. I don’t think I have,

Marina Mekheil 

but I’ve met both of you guys at icpa. Actually, we did, right? Okay,

Lalo  

yes, okay, yeah. I know Michelle. Michelle is infamous by taking her whole crew and overwhelmed with so many people, but that’s awesome that you do that, Michelle, that you provide a professional development for your team, and that’s awesome, so, but nice having you both on their show. And speaking of icpa, hopefully we’ll see you all in Orlando, whoever might be there. So yeah, so that’s in March 9 through the 12th, I believe. So I’ll

Michelle Schulz 

be there with our senior trade advisor, Kelly McCorkle, and I’m still, I’m still hounding Marina. I think she should go with me, just for fun.

Lalo  

Anyway, not Disney’s always fun. So anyway,

Speaker 1 

Well, ladies, have a great day to our listeners. Thank you so much again, and y’all have a great day. Thank you, guys, you.