New Year, New Tariffs, New Enforcements

Machine Operated Script:

Adrienne Braumiller (00:00.214)
Yeah, Andy, that’s new.

Andy Shiles (00:03.257)
Yeah, a lot of it, I just came in and sat down. I’ve been out, oh shoot.

George Tuttle III (00:07.296)
Thank

Lalo Solorzano (00:07.327)
No, they’re talking about your beard, dude.

Andy Shiles (00:10.139)
I’m a rugged individual.

Adrienne Braumiller (00:11.328)
Yeah, we haven’t seen that before.

Lalo Solorzano (00:11.465)
not your hat. Yeah, keep you can keep the you can keep the hat on but they’re talking about your beard.

Andy Shiles (00:20.64)
Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (00:22.99)
There you go, now you look like a cowboy.

Andy Shiles (00:24.725)
There you go, there you go.

George Tuttle III (00:25.985)
If I had known you were gonna wear that, I would have brought mine to

Lalo Solorzano (00:26.231)
Thanks

Andy Shiles (00:28.875)
There you go. I’ll tell you what, George, I’ve been keeping up tabs on your man. have, was that a raining, competition you were in this last go round?

Adrienne Braumiller (00:29.518)
I didn’t do it.

Lalo Solorzano (00:29.619)
Yeah.

George Tuttle III (00:39.961)
No, just my standard horsemanship stuff, but yeah.

Andy Shiles (00:42.557)
Okay. All right. Looks like you did pretty well though. Huh?

George Tuttle III (00:46.744)
thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Shiles (00:49.279)
Yeah. And that horse of yours is gorgeous. Yeah. How in the world are you doing? Adrian, you’re the, the redheaded beauty queen here.

George Tuttle III (00:51.982)
music-cuting.

Adrienne Braumiller (00:57.452)
Good, how are you?

Adrienne Braumiller (01:02.252)
Thank you. Good to see you. Happy New Year.

Andy Shiles (01:06.433)
Happy new year. Yeah. I guess it’s been a while since y’all have seen me. wound up, uh, literally last, I guess it was November, um, a year ago, November, guess Lalo when, when we, yeah. In Detroit and, uh, and then, uh, Canada. Yeah. It Thanksgiving week. Yeah. Anyway. Uh, and I came back from, uh, we had two conferences about a week or two apart.

Lalo Solorzano (01:21.323)
Yeah, was November. It was November last year. November. Yeah.

Andy Shiles (01:36.649)
And I came back and I kept thinking, well, I must’ve had a, two starched, a collar or something and whatever. And I’m like, you know, it was actually on this side. And, and then I got, when I came back from Canada, I’m like, that’s not a collar thing. And I went straight to the doctor and it turned out to be shingles. let me tell you, now I caught it. I got it really, really early. However, saying that.

George Tuttle III (01:56.199)
AAAAHHHH

Adrienne Braumiller (01:56.373)
no!

Andy Shiles (02:05.345)
Uh, and then of course they were giving me the medication and all that. And it was on my, back of my neck and kind of up in here and on my shoulder. I had to tell you, that’s one of the most painful things I’ve ever been through.

George Tuttle III (02:10.65)
Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (02:16.494)
Well, you know what? I know, like, Larry Hansen got shingles, and he warned me, and he said, get the shingles vaccine. I’m doing it. I’m gonna do it.

Andy Shiles (02:21.537)
Get the vaccine. I’m telling you.

George Tuttle III (02:27.334)
Yeah, there’s no reason, there’s absolutely no reason not to. I I don’t want to get into this whole vaccine thing, but…

Andy Shiles (02:31.505)
It is like, well. And with all that to say, I wound up, and you know, it was creeping up. So I tried to shave. I didn’t think much about it. I use an electric razor too. I thought I was going to come undone. I just, I thought, my God, this is what I just was screaming and trying to get it. Well, I said, forget that. So I wound up letting this grow.

And now it’s like, well, what do you, I just kept it so far. Everybody’s going, wow, that’s a little different, different look. is he can get up into the rafters and singing. I’m like in the bottom of the barrel, you know,

George Tuttle III (03:00.166)
I’m start calling you, yeah, I’m start calling you Kenny.

Adrienne Braumiller (03:00.302)
Thank

Adrienne Braumiller (03:05.218)
Hahaha, right?

Lalo Solorzano (03:12.789)
Hahaha

George Tuttle III (03:12.942)
Yeah, a Taylor Swift you’re not.

Andy Shiles (03:15.403)
Taylor Swift, you’re not. no, no.

Adrienne Braumiller (03:20.214)
funny.

George Tuttle III (03:21.399)
it.

Lalo Solorzano (03:22.167)
I don’t want to take, I know Adrian, you have a meeting at the top of the hour, so I don’t want to take too much time. I want to see how much we could record so we can get started. But y’all, it’s just really open forum. mean, whatever you guys feel like might be significant for 2026. Obviously the elephant in the room is SCOTUS, right? You know, so we can, if y’all want to address that, what your thoughts are behind that, what may or may not happen depending on.

Andy Shiles (03:22.53)
my goodness.

George Tuttle III (03:26.936)
yep.

Andy Shiles (03:29.505)
so we can get started. But y’all, it’s just really open forum. mean, whatever you guys feel like might be significant for 2026. Obviously, the elephant in the room is SCOTUS, right? You know, so we can, if y’all wanna address that, what your thoughts are behind that, what may or may not happen depending on a decision to or for, I mean, for or against the administration, right?

Adrienne Braumiller (03:35.352)
Okay.

Adrienne Braumiller (03:39.246)
Yeah.

Lalo Solorzano (03:50.715)
a decision to or for, I mean, for or against the administration, right? So it’s up to you. I do hear it.

George Tuttle III (03:56.699)
Well, we’re getting a lot of feedback somewhere.

Andy Shiles (04:02.589)
Well, is it on my ear or what?

Lalo Solorzano (04:05.96)
I know I have you.

George Tuttle III (04:06.145)
Andy Shiles (04:09.535)
And it’s got echo canceling on. You’ve got that on.

Lalo Solorzano (04:11.626)
Yeah, we have that.

Andy Shiles (04:16.417)
Testing one, two, three, four. Uh, there’s something kind of clicking in there too. Is there a phone? I’ll tell you what, does somebody have their phone near their mic or something?

Lalo Solorzano (04:23.902)
Andy. Yeah.

Lalo Solorzano (04:29.93)
No.

Adrienne Braumiller (04:30.178)
my phone by the screen, but not necessarily by the mic.

Lalo Solorzano (04:33.984)
So Andy, go ahead and talk.

Andy Shiles (04:36.033)
Okay. Testing one, two, three, four. How are we doing? It’s mine. Okay. Do I, is it that I’ve got too high a gain? Well, yeah. All right. You know what? Let me turn that down.

Lalo Solorzano (04:38.164)
Yeah, it’s yours Andy, it’s yours. Yeah.

Lalo Solorzano (04:46.6)
No, no, no, no, it’s not the game.

Lalo Solorzano (04:51.742)
It’s the speaker. You’re using a speaker,

Lalo Solorzano (04:57.974)
Lower the speaker, guess. Hello. Test, test. You see that better. I don’t hear it anymore. Oh, God, I do. Yes, I do.

Andy Shiles (05:01.153)
Oh, wait a minute. Okay. You hear a little bit. Shoot a monkey. Hang on a second.

George Tuttle III (05:08.484)
Yeah, it’s there.

George Tuttle III (05:16.422)
So, mostly that’s caused by a double mic

Adrienne Braumiller (05:20.332)
Yeah, usually that’s a…

Andy Shiles (05:25.419)
How about now? you hear it now? Is it still testing one, two, three, four.

Lalo Solorzano (05:27.488)
Let me see. Test, test, No, not you. It’s us. Test, test, test. I don’t hear it at all.

Adrienne Braumiller (05:33.923)
neither.

George Tuttle III (05:35.13)
How about now? Can you hear me? Okay.

Andy Shiles (05:35.371)
How about you, George?

Adrienne Braumiller (05:38.316)
Yes, perfect.

Lalo Solorzano (05:39.082)
Yeah, no echo, okay, perfect. So if you all wanna go down that route or if you think it’s a cliche, then we don’t need to go down that route, but you guys, yeah, okay.

Andy Shiles (05:42.879)
Okay.

Adrienne Braumiller (05:48.477)
I think we should talk about it. I do.

George Tuttle III (05:50.818)
Yeah, I mean, that’s part of our list. mean, this is the most important trade event in

Adrienne Braumiller (05:56.623)
20 years?

Andy Shiles (05:57.665)
Please.

George Tuttle III (05:59.611)
You know, would have to really, I would have to say in the last 200 years, if you’re a Supreme Court follower, this has incredible, are we started? This has incredible implications, not just on trade, but on presidential power and authority.

Lalo Solorzano (06:06.102)
Yes, since the 30s even, mean.

Andy Shiles (06:14.34)
No, yet.

Lalo Solorzano (06:14.612)
No, no, we could get started in a bit.

Andy Shiles (06:18.177)
.

Adrienne Braumiller (06:23.694)
You got echo again.

Andy Shiles (06:27.681)
All right.

George Tuttle III (06:27.878)
Okay, maybe I don’t know if it’s or not.

Lalo Solorzano (06:30.452)
No, it is definitely Andy because I just muted him and I can’t hear anything. So Andy, go, no, no, no, let’s do this. Turn down the gain on your microphone.

Adrienne Braumiller (06:31.594)
you.

Andy Shiles (06:39.135)
Let me go out and come back.

Lalo Solorzano (06:53.568)
Test it.

Andy Shiles (06:54.867)
My gain is probably pretty high.

Lalo Solorzano (06:57.246)
Yeah, it probably is.

Andy Shiles (07:02.433)
All right. Testing one, two, three, four. How’s that.

Lalo Solorzano (07:04.042)
Well, you sound great. Hello, hello, hello. Okay, so that totally eliminated it then, okay. Yeah.

Andy Shiles (07:06.889)
Yeah. Hello. Hello. Okay. It was the game that was up too high then.

Okay. All right. Well, why don’t I go ahead and do, we’ll, get us started and cause you’ve already hit the record button, I believe. Okay. So, okay.

Lalo Solorzano (07:22.262)
I just did it, yeah. So then we’ll start from here on out and then we’ll do that. Okay, cool.

Andy Shiles (07:30.113)
Hey folks, happy new year. It’s a new time for simply trade podcasts. It’s going to be 2026. And we’re going to look at things for, uh, you know, putting in our, uh, foreseeing future here or whatever we can come up with and make some comments. I, um, will say that, uh, we have really enjoyed quite a, uh, an interesting year in 2025 Lalo.

George Tuttle III (07:42.534)
Bye bye.

Andy Shiles (07:57.809)
And, a lot of things have happened. Everybody’s kind of stressed out. We’re over the holidays now. And, usually with the new year, have new year resolutions. You have a new optimistic outlook. And I think there’s still a lot of stress and things going on like what the Sam Hill is going to happen, but, Happy new year to you and the team down there.

Lalo Solorzano (08:20.458)
Well, thank you, Andy. Yeah, same to you. And so excited to get this year kicked off with a couple of folks who we’ve actually had them kick off our year in the past also. So excited. Yeah, yeah.

Andy Shiles (08:31.937)
Yeah, that’s true. I’m excited about these two folks. Lala, I’m so thankful that you got these guys together. I’m telling you, these two are two of my most favorite folks in the world.

Adrienne Braumiller (08:45.966)
the check’s in the mail.

Lalo Solorzano (08:46.046)
Right.

George Tuttle III (08:46.311)
Watch out, Sandy.

Andy Shiles (08:49.791)
Yeah, it’s going to be double this year though there, Adrienne.

George Tuttle III (08:50.641)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m a New Year’s, you know, I’m a New Year’s baby so, you know, it’s great that I kicked this off, right?

Lalo Solorzano (08:56.787)
wow.

Awesome. So in case y’all haven’t recognized their voices, which I doubt you haven’t, but we have Adrienne Braumiller and George Tuttle as well. So each from their respective law firms with their names on their Braumiller law firm and Tuttle Law as well. So we’ll have their contact information on the show notes in case you all want to go and visit and chat with them either through LinkedIn or directly on their website, whatever. But now that we got those formalities out of the way,

Adrienne Braumiller (08:59.778)
Yes.

Lalo Solorzano (09:28.534)
Thank you all for joining us. mean, this is something we’ve been looking forward to do in the beginning of the year and we’re excited to have you.

Andy Shiles (09:36.031)
Yeah. Always love it. Always love it. So I guess, pass the holidays there. did, everybody have a good holiday, everybody healthy and all of that or some challenges or what?

Adrienne Braumiller (09:39.822)
Yeah.

George Tuttle III (09:52.466)
Well, mean, yeah, all good here. You know, I don’t know if anybody’s been watching the news about the West Coast and the Bay Area, but you know, we’ve been underwater for the past few days. We’ve got these things called king tides and a wolf moon. so, you know, the tides are literally higher than they’ve ever been coupled with this.

Adrienne Braumiller (09:52.814)
Good.

Adrienne Braumiller (09:59.708)
yes, yes, what’s happening?

Lalo Solorzano (10:00.257)
Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (10:10.861)
Yes.

Lalo Solorzano (10:11.733)
Yeah.

George Tuttle III (10:18.533)
Massive rain, series of rainstorms, our atmospheric river.

Adrienne Braumiller (10:23.212)
You took our atmospheric river from Dallas. How dare you?

George Tuttle III (10:25.797)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it came down from Seattle and before it gets to you, it’s flown right through us. And we’ve had in the North Bay, we’ve had very, very significant flooding. Most of the access roads drive, you know, along the bay only two or three feet above normal high tide. So there’s tremendous amounts of flooding that’s happening, a lot of property destruction, but

Andy Shiles (10:30.868)
Yeah. And what we had in North Bay, had very, very significant flooding. Most of the access roads drive along the bay, only two or three feet above normal high tide. So there’s tremendous amounts of flooding that’s happening, lot of property destruction.

George Tuttle III (10:54.267)
but no real life concerning events, no property damage. There’s a lot of cheap bayfront houses that are available. If anybody wants to move to the Bay Area, housing, shopping, rapid.

Andy Shiles (10:54.497)
Let me make you a deal here.

Lalo Solorzano (11:11.412)
Not to say about the problems that P-G&E has been having there as well, right? mean, because they finally figured out the blackout situation there, right? And my daughter lives in the Bay Area. That’s what I know about all this too. So, you know, she said, you know, that situation with all the way most that stopped working and the blackout and all that crazy stuff, guess, George, so.

George Tuttle III (11:13.894)
Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (11:24.302)
Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (11:30.165)
I that was crazy.

George Tuttle III (11:32.38)
Well, I mean, somebody really missed it when, you know, when the power goes out and well, we lost 911 last night. All internet, everything went down for several hours last night. Yeah. And, and 911 said, there’s no way you can reach us by phone. Just keep trying. And I mean, luckily there were no.

Andy Shiles (11:33.645)
.

Adrienne Braumiller (11:45.262)
Are you serious? my god.

Adrienne Braumiller (11:51.47)
That’s crazy.

George Tuttle III (11:55.238)
I mean, we know it’s coming, right? The tide’s rising slowly. It’s not like it’s a wall of water like it’s been in the past. It’s not like it’s…

Adrienne Braumiller (12:03.202)
Wow. Meanwhile, we’re having California weather in Dallas in January.

Andy Shiles (12:04.481)
Yeah,

George Tuttle III (12:07.227)
Yeah, yeah, you’re in your 80s, yeah. But anyway, back to trade because we have a tsunami, we have a tsunami of topics to talk about. How exactly is trade going?

Lalo Solorzano (12:08.252)
Exactly here in El Paso as well.

Adrienne Braumiller (12:10.584)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s talk about it.

Adrienne Braumiller (12:18.092)
there you go!

Lalo Solorzano (12:18.159)
We have an atmospheric river ourselves of trade,

George Tuttle III (12:21.991)
Yes, we got an atmospheric river. And boy, does it feel like that. This last year, 2025, has been literally like drinking out of a fire hose for us and the legal community as certainly as well for our importing and exporting community with so many changes happening. And, you know, we want to talk about that and what 2026 looks like.

Adrienne Braumiller (12:49.294)
Absolutely.

Andy Shiles (12:49.894)
Well, getting into Adrienne, from your perspective, and especially in the Dallas area, are you seeing a lot of your clients that are

like ready to pull their hair out or is it a you know it’s like well they’re just kind of going with the flow down there in Texas or what?

Adrienne Braumiller (13:05.504)
would just say honestly, when the tariffs started, a lot of people were kind of shocked by it because of the lack of notice. So I think a lot of companies tried to import as much as they could before the tariffs went into effect. So that took effect, that was something that they did. But I think a lot of…

Andy Shiles (13:21.099)
Right.

Adrienne Braumiller (13:32.929)
folks in my area have looked at qualifying their goods for USMCA when they otherwise might not have because it was a 0 % duty rate. So we saw a lot of even aerospace companies prior to the trade and civil aircraft exemption under several different.

Andy Shiles (13:51.073)
exemption under several different specific country agreements come into effect. They were scrambling, they were panicking, they were like, oh my god, now we’re going to have to be terrorists on all of the civil aircraft. So that was a big deal. I think, think, you know, the USMCA trying to qualify a lot of companies and

Adrienne Braumiller (13:53.487)
specific country agreements come into effect. They were scrambling. They were panicked. They’re like, my God, now we’re going to have to pay tariffs on all of the civil aircraft. So that was a big deal. And I think, I think, you know, the USMCA trying to qualify a lot of companies entering foreign trade zones, setting up bonded warehouses, I think anything they could do to try and mitigate the tariffs they did.

Andy Shiles (14:21.496)
Well, I think you hit something, Adrienne, that’s, it was what we were hearing from, some other guests that we’ve had. It was the speed at which the implementation took effect. was, like, you know, not necessarily even arguing with the tariffs. was just a case that it was moving so fast and, know, trying to get some trade deals,

Adrienne Braumiller (14:23.242)
yeah. Yeah.

Andy Shiles (14:45.117)
to do something but it went so fast that your budget is blown your plans are blown everything is there’s a disruption and it’s

Adrienne Braumiller (14:53.282)
Right. think the biggest problem is the, it was really like a seesaw or a roller coaster. Roller coaster is probably a better analogy in terms of hurry up and do something. Like especially Switzerland. Everybody from Switzerland was so freaked out because they have one of the highest tariffs of anybody. Their reciprocal tariff was 39%. So they were all really pulling their hair out. Now it’s only 15%. So like they’re like,

Okay, we can live with that, you know? But George and I were talking earlier and we were saying, you know, it’s interesting. A year ago, prior to Trump coming into power again and announcing these tariffs, the average duty rate was less than 2%. Now, the average duty rate ranges from 15 to 17%. So there’s definitely a huge uptick in tariffs.

Andy Shiles (15:34.433)
I mean, that’s a good segue into that.

Adrienne Braumiller (15:50.765)
that I think a lot of people have been struggling to figure out what the heck to do. And that’s why the lawsuit’s so critical to so many of them, Yeah.

George Tuttle III (15:58.34)
Well, I mean, that’s a good segue into that. You know, before we had the AIIPA reciprocal duties, there, and we still have a lot of it today, regarding country of origin, right? And what is the true country of origin? And there’s, we could have a whole segment on that, right? But with the…

Andy Shiles (16:04.447)
Yeah, right.

George Tuttle III (16:26.179)
implementation of the AIIPA reciprocal tariffs, you know, now it was an effort to try to figure out where the most favorable conditions are to produce. How do we get that up and going? And of course, now we have this real dichotomy between trade, right? We have all of those importers that are trying to do it right.

And while they’re looking for opportunities to save duties, they’re paying higher duty rates. And on the other hand, a lot of my clients are calling me and saying, hey, my competitors aren’t playing fair. What do we do? And there has been a huge surge in enforcement activities, companies calling in to customs and.

Andy Shiles (17:02.017)
Yes.

Adrienne Braumiller (17:09.794)
Exactly, yeah.

Andy Shiles (17:15.809)
and activities, companies calling in to customs and reporting what they believe to be unfair trade actions. A lot of diversion is going on. I don’t think many companies that are doing that really realize that eventually customs, they’re going to look into everything. It might take them a year, it might take them two years, but they’re going to find it.

George Tuttle III (17:21.055)
and reporting what they believe to be unfair trade actions. A lot of diversion is going on. And I don’t think many companies that are doing that really realize that eventually customs, they’re going to look into everything. It might take them a year. It might take them two years, but they’re going to find it. And that’s, you know, that’s their

Lalo Solorzano (17:35.029)
Yeah.

Andy Shiles (17:43.329)
Well, and I’ve seen an increase in, um, or I’ve heard of people, there’s been an increase in, uh, exams. Um, and you know, and, in the midst of that, one of the things seems to happen is, you know, they’re obviously going for country of origin and verifying that and making sure things legitimate. But then the other thing is valuation is, uh, and they’re coming back with, uh, just almost arbitrarily. You’re, know,

Adrienne Braumiller (17:43.566)
does it say about that?

Adrienne Braumiller (18:06.395)
yeah.

Andy Shiles (18:12.895)
Here’s some action that’s been taken in your value now and maybe double or whatever. It’s like, are you getting that here? It’s a transaction value or it’s, it’s, you know, whatever the methodology is. And it seems like there are some people in the front lines of CBP.

that, you know, they’ve come straight out of custom school, if you will, or whatever. And they’re going in and say, well, you you can, sell this, you can buy this on the, on the internet for, you know, a hundred thousand dollars. Well, it’s coming in at 50,000. Well, guess what? It’s a wholesale deal. It’s not a retail. It’s, know, that transaction, those kinds of things is what I’m hearing for some people to say they’re hitting the, the valuation, I guess, because to your point, George,

There may be some people that are purposely undervaluing their goods to circumvent the duty impact or something. And you can’t do that.

George Tuttle III (19:11.035)
Well, there’s a lot of things that are happening in the valuation arena right now. There’s something that we call value decoupling, which is a legitimate activity and it’s built into the trade laws, but a lot of people haven’t focused on it until now. And what that is is really looking at your price paid or payable or your transaction value and looking to see what costs are built into the suppliers

price that don’t have a connection to or related to the production or sale of the imported merchandise. Those are oftentimes administrative expenses. They can be HR related expenses. They can be legal expenses. As well as looking at things like what cost do you pay at the port of export?

Andy Shiles (19:45.313)
a connection to or related to the production or sale of the imported merchandise. Those are oftentimes administrative expenses. Right. can be HR related expenses. can be legal expenses.

Adrienne Braumiller (19:51.438)
Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Braumiller (20:02.07)
Yeah.

George Tuttle III (20:11.303)
that’s incidental to the international shipment of the goods and And so we’re doing work now and trying to identify where we can decouple these pricing but but to talk and Adrienne I’ll let you go in just a second, but Andy your quest your comment about 29 is really on point this morning I get into work and I have a client that imports products from India into the US

Andy Shiles (20:22.177)
Good

George Tuttle III (20:37.761)
and they have a CF-29 waiting for them on 15 containers that say, you’re not the importer or record of these goods, either export them or destroy them. And it’s like, whoa, where did that come from?

Adrienne Braumiller (20:51.342)
Hello.

Andy Shiles (20:56.614)
Well, you know, to your point, that’s the thing is like, where’s this coming from? It’s like, there, there usually is some interaction or something. If you’ve got some questions or something, like, Hey, yeah, it’s, it’s, they’re taking some action. It’s like, wait a minute.

Adrienne Braumiller (21:05.742)
It’s not like that anymore. It’s not like that anymore.

George Tuttle III (21:06.119)
Right. And the thing is the importer that it’s a non-resident importer. Right. I think a lot of companies are shifting to that. But customs is now really questioning that non-resident

Lalo Solorzano (21:15.029)
Thank

Andy Shiles (21:20.455)
Right.

Adrienne Braumiller (21:23.096)
They don’t want it. Yeah, Customs doesn’t want it,

George Tuttle III (21:25.765)
Yeah, well, they’re questioning.

Andy Shiles (21:26.581)
But you still have to have that us serve two parties. you’re, still supposed to be. Legitimacy in that scenario.

George Tuttle III (21:33.926)
Well, you know, again, there’s the customs directive on who can be an importer of record. And if you’re the buyer, if you’re the purchaser, if you’re the owner, you have a right to be the importer of record. So now the question comes in, is it really a DDP transaction? Is it really an FOB transaction? A lot of issues that are kind of swirling around this. But to say, hey, it’s you’re out of here, you know, either destroy it or export it.

Andy Shiles (21:44.309)
Yeah, right.

Andy Shiles (21:52.315)
I think the we’re actually wrong is that I believe the Supreme Court will rule in the places

George Tuttle III (22:03.143)
doesn’t really give any… Yeah, these things, these notices seem to be ratcheting up in their intensity.

Adrienne Braumiller (22:04.558)
I’ve never heard that before. That’s shocking. I’ve never heard that.

Adrienne Braumiller (22:12.526)
Well, I think the reason they’re ratcheting up is that I believe the Supreme Court will rule in the plaintiff’s favor, meaning there should be some refunds. And I feel like they’re ratcheting up enforcement, so there’s other ways of making money. In your case, I don’t really get it, because that doesn’t make them money. That doesn’t make them government money.

George Tuttle III (22:33.575)
Yeah. Well, it does, it does, it does because if what they can do, if customs can throw out the DDP deductions, all of a sudden your entered value is the sale price to your ultimate purchaser. And then it ups the value, then, yeah, it’s very complicated because then what happens to the middleman, do they have a right to make entry?

Lalo Solorzano (22:37.16)
Thank you.

Adrienne Braumiller (22:43.523)
huh.

Lalo Solorzano (22:50.966)
Thank you.

Adrienne Braumiller (22:51.705)
yeah, then it upsets, it jacks it way up.

George Tuttle III (23:02.735)
Are they an agent? If they’re an agent, are the agent or the seller or the buyer? So, I mean…

Andy Shiles (23:07.473)
Well, to your point, all right, let’s stop for a second. Cause one of the things on a DDP transaction, that’s, that’s supposed to be the sale price, right?

George Tuttle III (23:17.529)
It is, except you’re allowed to take certain deductions from the DDT price. so much more than that. So much more than that, right? You have international transportation, you have domestic transportation, you have port of entry fees and documentation, you have customs duties that you deduct, you have customs clearance fees that you deduct, and you deduct the…

Andy Shiles (23:20.833)
Well, like the transportation cost you’re talking about in OK. You have international transportation, have domestic transportation, have court of interest fees and documentation, you have customs duties that you can conduct.

Lalo Solorzano (23:25.92)
Thank

Andy Shiles (23:42.849)
And you deduct the profit and general expenses related to selling domestically. you’re prepared and you document all of that, you’re back literally to the MLB price, which is the idea.

George Tuttle III (23:44.936)
profit and general expenses related to the selling domestically. So provided you’re prepared and can document all of that, you’re back literally to the FOB price, which is the idea. right. Didi, you know, the concept of deductive valuation is that you work your way back to the selling price, the FOB.

Andy Shiles (24:04.673)
the concept of deductive valuation is that you get to manipulate back to the money. Hey, let me say that we’ve been using a couple of things here. Folks, when we’re saying DDP, that’s delivery duty paid. That’s usually where a non-resident is foreigner is you’ve bought the goods from them. They’re willing to sell you the goods for, let’s say X price.

Adrienne Braumiller (24:12.622)
I

Andy Shiles (24:34.153)
All inclusive. it’s delivery duty paid. Everything’s done. And so, right.

George Tuttle III (24:37.211)
Right to your awareness.

Adrienne Braumiller (24:38.367)
they’re the importer, the non-resident is the importer in a GDP transaction.

Andy Shiles (24:45.141)
that’s what I’m

George Tuttle III (24:45.841)
So anyway, there’s lots of activity that’s happening. Just these kind of 28s and 20s, or mostly 29s that are coming off without a 28, you’re not given an opportunity to explain and you need to get some help.

Adrienne Braumiller (25:01.23)
And I’ve even seen no 28 and no 29 and immediately a notice of investigation. So I’ve seen that at least four times this year, four times this year, no 28, no 29, just an immediate launching of an investigation. So I think, yeah, I prayed for a 28. Give me the 28. So give me the notice of investigation.

Lalo Solorzano (25:10.196)
Yeah.

Andy Shiles (25:17.153)
watching this right. I think yeah, I pray for 28. Yeah, well, and that’s where let me give you some information here before you start going down that road. But it’s like I’ve heard reports of just go ahead and sieze the goods. They’re like, really?

George Tuttle III (25:24.763)
Ha ha!

Adrienne Braumiller (25:37.826)
Yeah.

Andy Shiles (25:37.833)
you know, what, what’s, is there an administrative error here? Is there something that’s so egregious that requires a seizure? And then you go through it then they wind up giving up the goods because you go through and you go through all this, but it’s like, there seems to be this group that have come into, know, there’s a lot of folks that have retired from CBP. Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (26:00.183)
Yeah, yes, a lot of really knowledgeable career folks.

Andy Shiles (26:04.125)
And it’s like, okay, they’re coming in and they’re really going to take things out. it’s like, all right, somebody’s thinking they’re going to make a name for this. Hey, look, what, look at what I found. There’s this egregious deal is like, no, it’s not.

Adrienne Braumiller (26:18.732)
I’m not so sure that it’s always the officer who is making that decision, Andy. I feel like it may be more of a policy-driven type of attitude, right?

Yeah, go ahead. What were you going to say, George?

George Tuttle III (26:37.371)
Well, no, mean, I just, think Adrienne’s kind of hitting the nail on the head here where there are policy and enforcement changes that many in custom, the minority in customs has always wanted, but has been unable to get. And that has now shifted that balance of power within customs has shifted to a much more conservative approach.

Andy Shiles (26:50.721)
that many in custom, in customs is always willing to buy in. Yeah. And that has now shifted.

Adrienne Braumiller (26:58.158)
Correct.

George Tuttle III (27:07.984)
You have to remember that, I don’t know, Customs used to publish this list of the top 5,000 importers. there’s something, you if you look at the true numbers…

Adrienne Braumiller (27:13.494)
Yes, I miss that.

George Tuttle III (27:21.649)
The vast majority of importers are these very small companies that are out there. And I have a few of these clients and they’re in way over their head in terms of dollars and liability versus their ability to support it. Right. And they’re the ones that are really getting taken advantage of here because they don’t have the resources or the knowledge

on how to fight back. And they oftentimes don’t have the resources to afford lawyers in order to fight back and take action.

Adrienne Braumiller (27:52.908)
Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Braumiller (27:59.663)
through.

Andy Shiles (28:01.848)
But you’ve got to have the attorney when if customs goes down this road, don’t waste your time and trying to work it out. Go get you a customs attorney because it’s in trying to navigate through that. Yeah, it’s going to be expensive.

But Lord have mercy, you could be doing something where you’re all on the up and up and you think you’re doing fine. And it’s just not, you know, the procedures aren’t there. The processes aren’t there.

Adrienne Braumiller (28:28.014)
You know what I just wanted to point something out. I think Andy, you’re absolutely right. I think. One one thing that kind of illustrates what you’re saying is the huge uptick in false claims at cases that involved customs fraud. When if I look at the cases in 2024, I’m seeing roughly less than and this may not be accurate, but I’m seeing two cases that pop up and.

Andy Shiles (28:49.601)
Goodness. Goodness.

Adrienne Braumiller (28:57.23)
They total less than 20 million in penalties. Last year, do you know how high the penalties were? Do you have any idea? Exceeding $100 million in penalties. So there was one case that was settled recently in December for 54 million. And again, I would say the majority of the cases are primarily like six cases. I would say the majority of them dealt with either anti-dumping,

Evasion. Country of origin errors or intentional misstatement of origin, right? And misclassification to avoid like Section 301. So in the case of the $54 million, which is the biggest one from last year, it involved misrepresenting country of origin, misclassifying products and failing to mark

Andy Shiles (29:44.225)
So in the case of the 54 million dollars, which is the biggest one from last year, it involved misrepresenting country origins, unspoken products, and failing to mark the gifts correctly. So anyway. But that well, but I would say, OK, so to that point, somebody that’s doing that and that’s got to be some a lot of stuff or some expensive things.

Adrienne Braumiller (29:56.015)
the goods correctly. anyway, it appears.

Andy Shiles (30:11.145)
That’s somebody that was somewhere in the midst of that, probably trying to actively circumvent some things. That’s I, that,

Adrienne Braumiller (30:16.716)
Yes, a lot of these cases are that.

Lalo Solorzano (30:18.314)
Well, yeah, and I’ve been picking up a lot of from conversations both on LinkedIn and even other podcasts that I’ve been seeing that I don’t know if this is like just me thinking this or interpreting it, but it sounds like because of what you just said, Adrienne, it almost sounds like Customs is going to be collecting a lot more duties or tariffs or money, let revenue, let’s call it revenue.

with PSEs versus the initial entry.

Adrienne Braumiller (30:50.048)
Interesting. Yeah.

George Tuttle III (30:51.345)
Well, yes, but perhaps, but post-summary corrections are kind of out the window at this point. I mean, you’ve lost your opportunity to file a post-summary correction if you’re in this, you know, if you’re in a 1692 case or if you’re

Andy Shiles (31:17.535)
All of a sudden it’s like it puts that your, your entry in a whole different category now. Right.

George Tuttle III (31:22.821)
Yeah. But I want to talk about this for a second, because Adrienne brought it up. And these cases aren’t necessarily intentional fraud cases, but they’re what we call willful negligence cases. That is, where you’re going like this and not really, you’re happy with your supplier saying, it’s coming out of Malaysia, it’s not coming out of China.

Andy Shiles (31:29.057)
These cases aren’t necessarily intentional fraud cases, but they’re what we call willful negligence cases. That is, where you’re going like this and not really…

You’re happy to be with your supplier saying, oh, it’s coming out of Malaysia. It’s not coming out of… And you’re saying, great, I’ve done my due diligence, and I’m not going to pay attention to it. Yes, and here’s something else, right? One, the same line that’s very fact-packed, where just gave towards, where an importer says, my supplier says it’s Malaysia, it’s not going to be Malaysia.

George Tuttle III (31:52.826)
And you’re saying, great, I’ve done my due diligence and I’m not going to pay attention to anything,

Adrienne Braumiller (31:52.898)
Yes.

Adrienne Braumiller (31:59.385)
Yes, and here’s something else, right? Along those same lines, that very fact pattern you just gave, George, where an importer says, well, my supplier says it’s Malaysia, but it’s not actually Malaysia, but it’s subject to anti-dumping duties can land you in an enforce and protect evasion case. So that too, we have to think those are on the uptick, FCA is on the uptick, and you’re right, it’s not that.

the company intentionally did anything wrong, especially with EEPA, it doesn’t require any kind of intent.

George Tuttle III (32:30.725)
Right, right.

Andy Shiles (32:32.006)
You know what? Here’s the thing that you’re hitting on that we’ve talked through this. There’s been, you know, so many, sessions at conferences, on webinars and different things. And that is, all right, make sure you’re vetting your suppliers, make sure you are vetting your, your item and, crossing the

T’s dot in the eyes and verifying, you know, it’s one thing, your supplier says, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is Malaysia. You better go in and put boots on the ground on some of the, especially your higher dollar things go validate that because what’s happening is China, obviously again, we’ve talked about this a lot with the forced labor prevention and, and, and

It was in 2023, there was a, guess, a billion dollars worth of seized goods for forced labor in 2023 of that. I think there was only like 90 or a hundred million that came directly from China.

The rest of it is like, uh, Malaysia had like, I don’t know, let’s say 375 million and Vietnam had 250 million and stuff like that. So what’s happening is China is then going out with all this hard stuff and they’re sending their goods to other countries. Then you manufacture it and you go through. what’s happening now is the next level. So the point being next level is manufacturing that in George, your point again, that country of origin type stuff and they drew

George Tuttle III (33:39.323)
Yeah. Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (33:48.654)
of

Andy Shiles (34:01.879)
and all this is that as it’s coming in, I guess the takeaway would be you’ve got to make sure now you may have not had any bad intentions, but you’ve got to have your compliance department literally have some resources to go out with your purchasing with whomever else and validate what you’re buying and going through because that anti-dumping and countervailing duty type stuff. What that’s even tougher.

Adrienne Braumiller (34:31.756)
Yeah, I think like sometimes people will have had a relationship with an intermediary and they don’t know that the intermediary is sourcing a good from a country in which we have anti-demon countervailing duty or it’s been trans shipped to a third country and you know they had no way of knowing that unless they dug into some documents some more, right? So that’s always a problem. But one thing I wanted to mention too about

these fraud cases is that the whistleblower, like these FCA cases usually involve a whistleblower. And the whistleblower gets up to one third of the penalty amount collected. And so the whistleblower and the $54 million case got 9.75 million. On the custom side, when you go to…

E allegations and you try to put in some kind of information, you actually have to have proof of whatever type of fraud you’re claiming or whatever type of violation that you’re claiming. That’s hard for a lot of people, right? But you can also get up to $250,000 as a party who has led customs to a successful penalty. So I guess it pays to find someone else’s fraud.

Andy Shiles (35:42.197)
You can also get up to $250,000 as a party who has led customers to successful film team. I guess it pays to find someone else’s fraud.

Lalo Solorzano (35:45.142)
Thank

Andy Shiles (35:57.025)
Well, that’s, that’s the incentive to supposedly it’s, uh, the watchdog type scenario there. All right. So with all this stuff that’s going on, we’re talking about, obviously the customs is up there, uh, their, uh, enforcement and whatnot. So let’s talk a little bit about the, you know, the, tariffs under the IEEPA uh, provision is what, uh, the Trump administration was pushing for. They are working out trade deals and have worked out trade deals, but there’s a collection of all.

Lalo Solorzano (36:20.31)
Thank

Andy Shiles (36:27.069)
the Court.

George Tuttle III (36:27.175)
Well, let me just say this. If the Supreme Court rules that the president didn’t have the authority to implement IEEPA duties, how does he have the authority to structure a trade deal?

Andy Shiles (36:44.238)
see, to your point, got to tell you traditionally the duty rates and all that have been one that I’ve wondered is like, well, if he can work out a trade deal, why can’t he do the duty rates to your point? I I’m going to.

Adrienne Braumiller (36:45.218)
Good point!

George Tuttle III (36:56.219)
Right. No, everybody isn’t really focusing on this, if you go back, if you go back in time, just a little bit, back to USMCA, you know, that was one of the big last major trade deals. You know, we have a fast-track trade agreement authority that goes from Congress to the president.

Andy Shiles (37:02.119)
I have wondered that same question. That’s a great question.

Andy Shiles (37:20.161)
The Congress. The Congress.

Adrienne Braumiller (37:25.912)
Mm-hmm.

George Tuttle III (37:26.555)
That’s Congress saying, okay, we are transferring our power to work out this trade deal, and we’re giving it to the president. So the president can work out the trade deal. Then the trade deal goes back to Congress, and they raise their hand and they say, yeah, we agree, or they say, no, we don’t agree. That’s fast-track trade authority. There has been no fast-track trade authority for any of these agreements. again,

Andy Shiles (37:41.985)
And they raise their hand and say, yeah, we agree. Or they say, no, we don’t agree. That’s fast track trading for it. There has been no fast track trading for any reason.

So, what is presidential authority? And, Adrienne and I were talking about this. This has to be one of the biggest constitutional law cases that we have seen in many, many 50s, 60s. mean, that’s, made before I was born, right? Going back to the making 40s and 50s and 50s. And that’s how big this court

George Tuttle III (37:54.348)
What is presidential authority? And Adrienne and I were talking about this. This has to be one of the biggest constitutional law cases that we have seen in many, many 50s, 60s. that’s way before I was born, right? Going back to the 1940s and 50s and 60s, that’s how big this

Adrienne Braumiller (38:11.658)
long time.

Right.

George Tuttle III (38:21.863)
court case is that’s before the Supreme Court regarding the ability of the president to take action when he doesn’t have explicit instruction from Congress to act.

Andy Shiles (38:22.433)
Well, to your here’s something I guess that I would wonder is that

Lalo Solorzano (38:36.842)
Wow, yeah.

Andy Shiles (38:42.887)
I can see working out the trade deals. I also see the deal with the tariffs. Tariffs are going to be an incentive for a country to change their behavior or to do something. It was like, okay, fine. As we look at this, now keep in mind, I’ve also seen where most of these tariffs, the other country has had higher tariffs on US goods. US goods have not been treated fairly. I’ve said that for decades.

George Tuttle III (39:08.839)
That was intentional. There were negotiators in Washington DC that said, we want to give this up because we want these benefits over here.

Andy Shiles (39:21.114)
Right. Well, but you want cheap imports to a point, but to me it’s sacrificing us exports to a point. I’m just looking at it. Here’s the thing though, to your point here, George, is that in us start looking at it.

I could see where the president is negotiating these things, doing this, using the tariffs. He’s got people at the table. They’re actually negotiating something. What I don’t understand is why then the president did not take the, say the UK trade deal. That was the first one that was finally finalized. I Why didn’t they get sent back to Congress to ratify it?

George Tuttle III (39:57.672)
because that would have shown that he believed he didn’t have the authority to do it. Yeah, there’s no way he was going to do that. He was more interested. He’s waiting for somebody to challenge him. He’s not going to go, he’s not going to cede any of his presidential authority. I mean, this is politics, but it’s you know, blue versus red. This is about a much higher level of politics.

Lalo Solorzano (40:01.559)
Right. He didn’t do it. Yes.

Adrienne Braumiller (40:02.478)
Exactly.

Adrienne Braumiller (40:11.491)
Yes.

Adrienne Braumiller (40:24.552)
Constitutional law, right?

George Tuttle III (40:27.335)
the team, Congress and the president, whichever president it is. We only have a few minutes left and I know Adrienne has to go. I wanted to jump on just a couple of questions that we get a lot of. know she’s gotten a lot about it. I’ve written about it. Two things. One, what happens with the IEEPA tariffs if the Supreme Court says that they’re unconstitutional? And the second question I want to talk briefly about, second issue.

is 232 steel, aluminum, and copper tariffs. And how do we, when we have a derivative product, how do we figure out the value? And so maybe we could start with the IEEPA duties and how do we get our, how do we, if the president, if the Supreme Court says that the president doesn’t have the authority, how do people get their duties back? That’s a big question. Adrienne, what do you,

Andy Shiles (40:57.525)
is 232 steel, aluminum, and copper tariffs. And how do we, when we have derivative products, how do we figure out the value? And so maybe we can start with the IEEPA duties. How do we get our IEEPA? If the president, if the Supreme Court says that the president doesn’t have the authority, how do people get their duties back? That’s a big question.

I didn’t it’s it’s a big question mark right now. I mean, obviously people be.

George Tuttle III (41:28.465)
Well, I don’t think it’s such a big question mark for us, but this is what we want to talk about.

Andy Shiles (41:34.165)
Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (41:34.51)
Well, think, yeah, I think it depends on if we think the Supreme Court’s simply only going to rule on constitutionality and then remand the decision regarding the refund fund back to the CIT. I feel like, I think they will.

Lalo Solorzano (41:34.549)
head radio.

Andy Shiles (41:38.625)
the Supreme Court simply want to win the rule on constitutionality and then remand the decision regarding the defense on Act in C-13. I think they want to. I think they want Yeah, the refund issue wasn’t addressed in the criminal litigation. They’re not going to talk about something that wasn’t addressed.

George Tuttle III (41:49.03)
I think they have to. The refund issue wasn’t addressed in the original litigation. They’re not going to talk about something that wasn’t addressed in the proceedings.

Adrienne Braumiller (41:58.639)
Anyway, yeah. So I feel like I agree with that. think it will go back to the CIT. They will deal with it. That’s going to be a few more months. I don’t know if they’ll expedite. I would think they would. They were pretty quick with the court cases on this issue. And so I, but I feel like, yes, hopefully there will be something concrete and definitive about

the refunds that the CIT can address and they don’t necessarily punt it over to CBP for an administrative process, but maybe that’s what they’ll do. I’m not sure.

George Tuttle III (42:39.175)
What about what are your thoughts on the protest versus the 50 million white people?

Andy Shiles (42:44.065)
The two. I think the protest right now looks great. So a protest right now, it’s not a protestable decision in their way. And so that’s what the court has said. So after these three court rules, then you would have a protestable decision that the customs liquidates.

Adrienne Braumiller (42:47.214)
don’t think a protest right now works, right? So a protest right now, it’s not a protestable decision, I don’t believe. And so that’s what the court has said. So, but after the Supreme Court rules, then you would have a protestable decision if customs liquidates at the higher amount, right? At the IEEPA, with the IEEPA in it.

then it would be a protestable decision. I guess the problem I have with that is how long is it going to take to get that money? You know, I feel I mean right now we sit for we sit for years sometimes waiting for a protest to be decided.

Andy Shiles (43:15.424)
I guess the problem I have with that is how long it’s going to take to get that money. You know? feel, I mean right now we sit for, we sit for years sometimes waiting for a protest.

See, I will tell you this though, in the event of this, I think the Trump administration is waiting for a decision one way or the other. But then let’s say that the Supreme court goes against the administration in this. I think he’s got something else that he’s going to be pulling out that may come. Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (43:47.502)
Will they talk about that?

George Tuttle III (43:47.634)
Well, that’s okay. That’s okay. He can. This is not, again, I try to tell everybody this is not about red versus blue. This is about presidential authority and whether he had the constitutional authority to do what he did. If he does, then there’s nothing wrong with what he’s done. If he didn’t have the authority, then what he’s done is on a…

Lalo Solorzano (43:48.214)
Right. Yes.

Andy Shiles (43:57.889)
Well, and to your point, I guess I keep.

George Tuttle III (44:16.359)
It’s basically illegal, right? He can pull something else out.

Andy Shiles (44:21.685)
But see, keep coming back to the scenario. I think he’s given the authority to negotiate and do these things, but I still come back to where I believe I’m thinking that Congress has to ratify that. And if, and if that’s the case, here’s another thing is if the Congress or if the Supreme court comes, yes, he has the authority, but after all those trade deals, then Congress has to ratify it.

George Tuttle III (44:36.773)
Yeah, that’s right.

Lalo Solorzano (44:37.524)
Yes, exactly.

Andy Shiles (44:51.401)
what happens then, then they can keep the money.

George Tuttle III (44:53.425)
No.

Lalo Solorzano (44:53.686)
But I think the problem is more that those are not trade deals that he did. Those were like 15%, 20%, 30%. Right.

Adrienne Braumiller (44:59.128)
Frameworks. Frameworks. Yeah, not agreements, just frameworks.

Andy Shiles (45:02.047)
You know, it’s what’s the framework in the negotiations. Yeah. Right.

Lalo Solorzano (45:05.31)
Right. Well, yeah, anyway, but okay, you had a second thing, George, on 3232.

George Tuttle III (45:10.695)
Well, 232. So, you know, this is another area highly dangerous for importers because they’re the instructions on how in for derivative steel, aluminum and copper and wherever else would go products. Their customs and the president in the Federal Register notices have talked about how you calculate the value in terms of splitting the value out.

under 232 derivative products. But neither the CBP nor any of the other administrative agencies responsible for implementing this, commerce, has really provided very clear instructions on how to do it. And so there’s been an awful lot of people that are importers that are using a lower value than perhaps customs may interpret.

Andy Shiles (45:44.193)
But neither CBP nor any of the other administrative agencies responsible for implementing this particularly, Congress has really provided very clear instructions on how to do it. And so there’s been an awful lot of people that are employers that are using a lower value than perhaps…

George Tuttle III (46:09.863)
And there’s advice that’s out there that’s just wrong. And so I think a lot of companies need to take a very hard look at that before customs does. We’ve seen some CF-28s coming out that are asking for very specific information regarding how the value breakdown occurred. And advice, at least,

But secondhand advice from customs is that you, and we’re getting a lot of echo back. I’m not quite sure what.

Lalo Solorzano (46:46.718)
Yeah, Andy, I’ll mute you for a little bit. But go ahead, go ahead, George.

George Tuttle III (46:52.163)
Okay, yeah, the advice, and Adrienne, maybe you can jump in on this. The advice, the secondhand advice from customs was that in the derivative product category, the way you determine it is you subtract the material costs for all of the non-steel or aluminum product from the transaction value, and that’s the price you use for the deduction.

and then the 232 value is everything that’s left over. And, you know, yeah, no, I was just going to say we disagree with that, with the way that that explanation has been proposed regarding customs value.

Adrienne Braumiller (47:27.854)
All I was going to say, go ahead, you finish your thought.

Adrienne Braumiller (47:40.377)
think the frustration is that Customs has said that they’re studying this at headquarters and that they’ll issue some guidance, but that’s been several months in the making. But yet they continue to issue C of 28s on the metal value content without really the proper guidance. So it’s really frustrating. It makes it really difficult.

George Tuttle III (48:05.115)
Well, I think there’s a lot of issues is that, know, what does that do for a defense if customs rate advances? You know, what, where does reasonable care fall? Where does customs responsibility fall? Things, things like that.

Adrienne Braumiller (48:12.365)
Mm-hmm.

Andy Shiles (48:21.766)
Well, and I think this is a great example of the impact of such knowledge retiring and leaving customs. Other folks coming in is, one issue. The other is with so much change happening that, you know, quite frankly, customs probably needs some additional resources, to fill in on some of this as well. and that, that would be, that would come back to a budgetary issue.

Adrienne Braumiller (48:47.874)
they’re hiring. I know they’re hiring a lot of people, but I just don’t know. The number I saw was that CBP and ICE are hiring 10,000 new officers, but I think the vast majority of that is ICE. So I don’t know what percentage.

Lalo Solorzano (49:01.364)
Right.

George Tuttle III (49:01.991)
Well, I have a lot of problems with that. So anybody that CBP hires in the field to do field work has to be trained. They have to go to Quantico. They receive only six to eight weeks of training. In this environment, you certainly can’t learn the complexities of customs.

customs law, classification, valuation, country, origin in that short amount of time. So there’s likely to be lots of mistakes. There’s likely to be lots of conservative opinions impacting your imports. And you’re going to need to have to have a system in place to challenge those and understand how you do that.

Andy Shiles (49:58.005)
Well, and that lends itself again, it’s that it’s kind of like when you’re getting stopped for by a policeman for either speeding or something, they’re arguing your point right then, you you can make a bit of a case and if they continue on, that’s not where you need to fight the situation there is that, you know, you have to go back. So same thing here is that in the midst of it, you can try and make your case a little bit. If they’re going to go ahead and take action.

George Tuttle III (50:16.123)
That’s right.

Andy Shiles (50:25.633)
I come back to you’re better off to go ahead and develop a relationship with a customs attorney and say, I need some guidance here because we need some help in navigating that. because with those processes, even the customs inspectors themselves may not be familiar with the right processes and hints of an attorney coming in and play.

George Tuttle III (50:50.139)
Well, there’s a whole different issue. I had a system court director tell me one time that he won’t let his inspectors talk to attorneys. And listen, don’t want to cut this off. I don’t want to say talk to an attorney. Talk to your trade professional. Talk to your licensed broker.

Lalo Solorzano (50:50.837)
Yeah.

George Tuttle III (51:15.911)
They oftentimes know a lot more procedural processes than many trade attorneys do simply because we work in different environments, right? So seek professional help is the correct, I think, way to present this. And that may be a customs attorney, it may be your broker, it may be a licensed consultant.

you know, you need to understand the particularness in this 232 environment. Customs will chase you down. Every single one of these 232 derivative products thing is going to be on customs plate. They’re going to be looking for errors. And that’s the we’re seeing that slowly at first, but they have five years to do this. They’re not in a hurry. So it happens. Yeah.

Adrienne Braumiller (52:09.71)
I apologize.

Lalo Solorzano (52:11.658)
Yes, Adrienne needs to go. I was going to say that, yeah. So we can wrap up. It’s okay. No, we have a lot more to talk about, but we’ll talk about it maybe in another show. But yes, you’re right, Adrienne. You have a good one and see you at the conferences. Guys, thank you, George. Yes, same to you, George. Thank you so much. Bye.

Adrienne Braumiller (52:22.073)
Yeah. Thank you. You betcha. Bye guys. See ya. Have a one. Bye.

George Tuttle III (52:25.574)
Okay. Thanks, everybody. Happy New Year, everybody. Thanks.